Friday, March 27, 2009


i've had many a request to go toe-to-toe with "peter priesthood" @
why mormon girls stay single over a myriad of issues.

while i've thought long and hard about his possible war, i'm not really interested in going tit-for-tat with a cyber geek who is often hilarious, misguided, irreverent,
and sometimes totally correct.
will i be sparking a dungeons and dragons duel?

i will, however, chat with you about a serious cultural issue in the
"mormon dating scene." please understand that i'm not complaining-i'm ok.
this gal is just observing...

why don't mormon men date?

i have had the awesome luxury to go on many dating adventures
(with men of and of not my faith). i'm a lucky one... some of these adventures have been
well-documented distasters but a great many of them
have been amazing (they're just not as funny to write about ;).

i know many LDS girls who aren't as fortunate considering we outnumber the
boys 2 or 3 to 1--
and, lets be honest, most of my dating has been with men who are not of my faith.
upon reflection, i find one key aspect that these suitors have in common:
they ask me to go on proper dates.

see, i'm of the "old-fashioned" idea that men should be the pursuers. when i was 14, i was asked during a young women's organization exercise to write the
characteristics i was looking for in a future husband.
my list looked like this:

1. ambition


and that was it....
while my mom was borderline horrified by this sparse and somewhat terrifying list, i guess felt like ambition was kind of an all-inclusive umbrella which held;
RM, well educated, career-driven, witty, funny, creative, talented, interesting, handsome...someone who pursues.. etc.....
or, i guess you could say, the man i'm attracted to is the man who has the
gumption to pick up a phone and ask.

ladies, we enable these dudes!
by calling first, texting first, planning dessert parties, scheduling group events just to get in the same room with these guys is basically emasculating them.
i'm not suggesting we be totally passive...
(don't freak out, women's libbers... i'm as equal opportunity as they come-
i just like my men strong, and interested in me.)


flirt your brains out, be fun, express your interest subtly, and be a moving object of desire (MOD) then let him make a move... if he doesn't.... he's not the kind of man i'm interested in.
i feel it our duty to re-train this culteral dating epidemic!
have we enabled a group of lazy daters by having too many group church activities?
are they afraid that if they take a gal on a measly single date,
everyone in their fishbowl will assume that they're dating?

to that, i say, "cowboy up!"

i'm not choosy. in fact, the simpler the first date, the better...
nothing is more awkward than a man blowing a wad of cash on a meal
that you're miserable attending...
a simple hot chocolate (ang, that's for you!), a walk around the block, lunch...
you get the idea.

anyway,
that's the man i'm interested in... the one who will court me.

and sorry, "peter priesthood," there aren't many LDS men who know how to do that anymore.

photo by sussy

60 comments:

Allison aka HaselBride said...

I think this is the first time I've commented, but I absolutely adore your little bits about your life. Hilarious a lot of the time, and just plain fun.

Anyhow, I'm married and not Morman, but I think this is an interesting idea and could apply to all women! I want to forward this post to all of my single friends and see if they'll try this attitude on for size for awhile.

Kate said...

I totally agree with you. In my last single's ward, the bishopric actually had a combined meeting to talk about this and teach those guys what going on an actual date meant. And it was news to them!! Hanging out in a group is NOT a date.

aimee heff said...

I am married now but this situation couldn't be more true to my experience as a single mormon girl. Nice summary!

Cowboy freaking up!

kailee said...

I agree 100%...btw this is my first comment and I love reading your blog. I have so many similar dating stories :)

siovhan said...

I'm a long time lurker, first time commenter. But seriously, Mormon guys are dating pansies. I'm dealing with this right now. I think we do give them too many "outs" to having to formally court us.

So, Amen, Sister.

Ashley said...

AMEN

Shanicherie said...

Another long time reader, first time commenter...

I agree with what you're saying, HOWEVER, girls aren't exactly always straightforward either. They play games and are wishy-washy with men, which some guys just get sick of dealing with, so they don't ask us out anymore!

When I gave my now husband my number before he asked for it, I was essentially telling him I was interested, no games. He took the lead from there and was happy to because he was waiting for that girl who had exited the 'game-playing' part of dating.

Basically, what I'm saying is ... if there is a guy that you are really interested in and are confused as to why he hasn't asked you out yet, take the first step and maybe things will turn out great like they did for me!

Marla said...

i LOVE how you handled this post - it wasn't filled with bashing (and believe me, after i was astounded at peter priesthood's post, i kind of wished you would've) but with a more positive take. thanks. :)

Anne said...

Amen Sister!! I couldn't have said it better myself.

MidCityGal said...

This is also my first comment, but I just wanted to tell you that what you said is so true and so refreshing. And so needed to be said.

The girls who enable those lazy mormon boys to date them by always being the pursuer will eventually realize that they'll have to continue "enabling" their men for the rest of their lives.

I knew when I got married that I didn't want to have to be the one telling my husband to do his home teaching, spend time with the kids, have family home evening, etc. But (sadly) most of the guys who can't/won't/don't take the initiative in dating, will never take the initiative in marriage either. So, definitely stay away from them.

Like you, ambition was #1 on my list of qualities in a husband. I feel really lucky to have ended up with a great husband, but I can honestly say that I let him pursue me. It was great!

(Oh and yeah, that Peter Priesthood guy is lame. I feel bad for him and his single cronies. What a waste of time and effort.)

Brittany said...

so well said. i'm a reader of that blog, and i think the guy is pretty funny and he's sometimes right. but i hate the dating scene lately. i have dated some great guys and they just have serious commitment issues. being single, lds, and almost 27 isn't always easy. love your blog!!

Brooke Rane said...

love this post, natalie. you hit it right on the nose...i know way too many guys at church who are waiting around for the perfect moment...

eden said...

amen. to all of it. thank you for stating it so well!

lauren said...

i agree with every word you've just said. and even though it's been awhile since i've commented on your blog, i just had to publicly state how much i agree with you.

i spent four years at byu and saw this kind of behavior all the time. but i too, am old fashioned, and really got tired of the "so... do you, like, wanna hang out tonight?" (aka do you want to drive over to my house, watch a movie/put out while i expend absolutely no energy in planning anything worthwhile and shamelessly taking advantage of you?)texts that seemed to be the norm during my collegiate life. it was so refreshing to leave that little bubble and find a man that (gasp) planned dates in advance and opened my doors and called or emailed me the next day to tell me how much fun he had the night before. it's really not a surprise that i ended up marrying him.

and you, my dear, are going to end up with someone so incredible it's not even funny, because you get it. you're not willing to compromise on the basics. and that's what matters.

oh yeah, and i really heart your blog. :)

emily said...

Seriously. Men just don't ask women out. My husband and I never once went on an official date. Okay we did, but my roommate went with us so it doesn't really count. Lame. (and I tell him that all the time. now he takes me on dates).

jess said...

I couldn't agree more- the blame falls on both parties! I see nothing wrong with being old fashioned... My husband informed me that I was the first girl that didn't start texting him right away- "just to say hi and have a good day" c'mon make them work for it a little more- they will appreciate it in the long run.

Shaylyn said...

AMEN!!! Thanks for posting this! I have been SO frustrated lately by the lack of interest that these great men show for the wonderful women of our faith! It's true that we enable it. I am going to take a stand from now on. THANKS!

Marci said...

Thank you for posting this. I could not agree more. Just last week I was talking to my home ward bishop (I am trying out the dreaded singles ward) and he was asking me if I was dating. When I said no he asked why? I had to explain to him that no one ever asks not just me but any girl in the ward. I dont think he believed me. Word of advice to you mormon boys out there, sitting next to us at FHE or hanging out with us at a ward activity is not considered at date. Maybe I am just to old fashioned.

Robbie said...

To whom it may concern:

Ask anyone. I love dates. Big ones. Little ones. Thoughtful ones. Playful ones. The more the better. There are Mormon guys that know how to court. We are just in Miami. Loving the sun. Sorry.

Robbie

miss rikki said...

here's my big question - WHY? why is it so hard for these boys to pursue? i don't think they are ALL unambitious, or lazy, or disintered. perhaps peter's belief that women are too clingy holds a LITTLE water, but it that can't be the reason that these guys don't even try. what is the real reason behind the epidemic?

are they scared of becoming husbands? fathers? the responsible man the church wants them to be? do they thirst for a little of the wild-life that other men seem to enjoy? really? WHY?

Banjo said...

I love your blog, have been reading for sometime and had to comment! I'm not mormon... BUT, I so relate to what you are saying! Cowboy up is right, you can say that twice and mean it. I want a guy who can take the lead, and not be afraid to do so. Because if he can't take the lead in asking you for the first date, what does that say about the way he handles the rest of his life? Ya know what I mean. Great post!

Emmie {orange + barrel} said...

I totally agree. I am not Mormon but I spent some time at BYU, and dating was the most horrible experience. I think your right it boils down to the ratio, and lazy men. Maybe it's not fair because I wanted a big city guy with big city ambition.

I don't know if this epidemic spreads to the real world as much, but there are lazy daters everywhere. I live in Los Angeles, and I think the only good serious daters are Jewish men, and not all of them. I ended up with a Jewish guy and we are probably getting married. It's hard to find a good man these days, especially for an educated/working woman.

Laurel said...

amen and amen.
sometimes we are our own worst dating enemy. you're right on that.
Let them step up...the good ones do.

You're ridiculously great.

Emily said...

I love that people think you worthy of going toe to toe... You are and I think you could match but I think that anyone attempting to tit for tat w/ PP is going to sound shrill, bitter and harsh... like a harpy... But I agree, Mormon boys need lessons from the NonMo Y Chromosomes to figure this how do properly date a woman!

chelsea said...

Dating is about trying people on and seeing if they work. Somehow in the Mormon culture we've made guys so freaked out about dating (they think one date is like a marriage proposal) that they just don't do it. My guy friends who date a lot and actually have relationships and try people out are either converts or have been inactive and then returned to the church, or they just happen to think way out side of the box. Or they aren't Mormon. I attended Mormon colleges and never dated much until my sophomore year when I went to an island where there were NO Mormons. I dated more in 5 months there than 2 years at Ricks College.There is a huge growing population of single people inside and outside of the church. Because we segregate Single + Married people for so many years, it is as if Single people aren't grown-ups. Singles wards foster immaturity and laziness.

I am pretty sure the guy that writes that blog has some mental health issues so I wouldn't really recommend starting a rival blog. His opinions are very ignorant and misogynistic.

heidikins said...

Amen and Amen.

xox

Meg Fee said...

amen go right there! best post ever. yes to ambition. yes to ambition as an umbrella. yes to men having courage and gumption!!

mckenna said...

This is the one thing I loathe about my husband. I was too young and too excited to realize that we really didn't "date" at all before we got married. Then all of the sudden I wondered why he didn't take me out anymore?! Oh wait...he was always this way. :( And now I'm stuck with him! ;) Everything else about him seems to make up for this flaw, but you can bet I'll be teaching my daughter to be PERSUED!!

Lindsey said...

clap clap clap clap clap! I totally agree with you! I am a strong, independant woman, but that doesn't mean I should have to wear the pants and make the moves and enable these sissies. Guys should, and have been counseled, to ask girls out (hanging out is not a date). I'm trying to be better about being an MOD - love that! Thanks!

Martha H. said...

AMEN, Sistah!

I love your blog. I can't remember how I found it, but I love reading it.

Lindsey said...

oh, and I would love to post this on my blog and give you props - hope you don't mind!

I am LoW said...

Amen!!

I mean, I've heard this, but luckily I married before this awful pandemic. But I've heard my younger sisters and YW who have moved on to college talk about it. And it's awful and ridiculous!

All I know is, I have 2 teenage sons that I am doing my best to raise better than that. Because quite frankly, I think it's unacceptable.

Carolyn said...

I agree 1,000% with you, thank you for saying it so eloquently! Dating is so hard these days and we do enable them...well, some women do. I'm so much like you, in that regard.

Brenda said...

You are hilarious! And so right on.

Jess said...

Definitely weed out the pansies...Once you are married, you will want someone who knows how to take you out and make you feel like you are still being pursued (and like you are worth the effort!) If they don't do it before you are married--they sure aren't going to do it after! (That's my 2 cents anyway.) Great post! Rings too true.

Tim & MyLyn Wood said...

Power to you for not sugar coating it! I will say this in addition though, when it's a date, make sure the girl KNOWS it's a date. I've been invited to so many things thinking it was a group hang out and it ended up being a sneaky way of taking me out alone. SUPER awkward upon finding out AT the restaurant.

bethany.j said...

It's absolutely true. I have 2 adorable, smart, outgoing, gorgeous, flirtatious, but independent younger sisters AT BYU who almost never get asked to go out on a decent, formal, planned date. These boys- I could strangle ALL OF THEM.

Bingy's blog said...

I am glad you opened up this can of worms!! I've been married for 12 years, and my daughters are old enough to where I can imagine them dating. The problem with Mormon boys? They sit, wait, and expect big boob barbie to fall in their lap. Then they'll get married. ONLY if there is no new model of BBB, only then will the previous model do.
Or perhaps, if they could marry their $5,000 mountain bike, they would.
Either bike, or BBB.

Shelby Lou said...

thank you. thank you. thank you.

Malinda said...

Amen! They really do need to man up!

Abete and Tara Batini said...

I have followed your blog for a few months now and this is my first comment....I totally agree and did what you are doing. Staying true to my desires led me to my husband of two months. He is everything I planned for...he pursued me. We are very happy and I am grateful to have a husband that goes after what he wants (righteously).

dubya said...

A.M.E.N.

Alice Wills Gold said...

Alrighty,

You are going to hate this comment.

I hate to tell you, but even the married LDS/nonLDS guys don't really get this concept either.

You could be waiting a looooonnnng time for the perfect man with ambition.

Men don't understand ROMANCE or that women want to be pursued.

Just settle for the non-ambitious and work it out in marriage counseling. :)

And this is all said as nicely as possible from a happily married lady who really has learned to feel sorry for the guys who don't get it.

Kaela Cusack said...

i agree to an extent, but i have also seen way too many byu princesses who are expecting someone on a white horse. you gotta be realistic!
in the meantime...gents...pick up the phone :)

Emmie {orange + barrel} said...

I disagree with settling for a non-ambitious one! There are plenty of ambitious men out there--it just takes a lot of time and dating a lot of frogs.

Shara said...

I agree! I adopted this philosophy after getting involved in far too many hanging out "relationships":

DATE ME OR LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!!

Oh and it worked. I told my fiance that a year ago and he couldn't leave me alone ;)

Rae said...

I couldn't agree more.

chiggidy said...

Amazing. Simply amazing.

You nailed what every single woman I know feels. These guys need to get it together.

Felicity said...

Amen and Amen.

I am so totally with you. This reminds me of another blog I found recently: http://mormonsingle.blogspot.com/2009/01/these-days.html

John and Angela said...

Girls jump too quickly into things when a guy shows even a teen spark of interest. I come from D.C. singles wards and there are literally 5-7 girls fawning over one guy after church and the guys just eat it up. No work on their part at all! I used to be one of those girls and then wondered why these guys never asked me out when I was just so cute and interested in them and their stories. I would even organize really cool things to see/do and invite these guys to come with "our group". They would go for it every time, because they didn't have to plan an activity and they had cute girls who made great company. But it never really went anywhere after we'd plan these great things! Some of these guys/crushes didn't have to work a bit. In addition to this, texting/emailing/calling after a date to say, "I had a great time" or "Hope you're having a great day!" is a turn off to guys. It screams desperate or insecure or needy, even just subconsciously. If he had a great date and is interested, he'll call you. It took major self control, but I never did all of that with my now-husband (I had just finished reading He's Just Not That Into You when we met). He says it was interesting and intriguing to him that I didn't fawn over him, but still showed interest whenever we talked or saw each other. He says this was the clincher for him. He stepped up to the plate and pursued me because he was interested and the other girls were always just "there". He thought I may not be. Men are programmed to pursue. If they are pursued or feel cornered, it is over. If the guy is shy, he said they may need a little more encouragement but even the shyest guys still step up and ask a girl out if they are interested. Perhaps it's as much the women's fault as the men's. We could be actually enabling them,and helping create this non-dating culture.

KJ said...

It's true. It's been an epidemic for years. One of the reasons I fell for my hubby: he pursued me. He called me up all proper like, asked me out confidently and graciously, and continued to do so. He even made plans in advance. Some simple, some fancy. He really truly pursued me. AND, he wasn't afraid to tell me how he really felt about me or anything else for that matter. Chutzpa!

LeaCabrera said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LeaCabrera said...

Yes, girl. Amen.

But here's my question, being that I'm new to your home state..

Am I the only single person (age 29+) in the state of Utah?

sure seems like it! lol

Lindsey said...

Also...this inspired me to create a Facebook group called "MOD" where we can network together, do monthly activities, and send uplifting or educational articles, relating to the difficulties of being LDS & Single...us girls gotta stick together abd inspire each other to be strong women, and to not give into dating or enabling "less-than guys"...thanks! Oh, and I also think you should write about the difficulties of being a young successful woman, and the intimidation factor and some ways of addressing that or dealing with it...I know I could use it! Thanks!

Elizabeth said...

I agree!

Emily said...

Hey, is they guy in the photo named Reid? I'm almost positive I know him.

Natalie* said...

emily.. sussy shot this for stock and she says YES. that is reid. wasn't it the perfect shot?!

Anne Elliot said...

Apparently this was the post to get all your lurkers to comment! I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way! Sometimes I think maybe it is just me, and everyone else dates.

I agree completely - I have always been an old-fashioned type of girl - I want a guy who is interested enough to pursue me, not one that I have to baby and coddle into a relationship - I don't want to spend the rest of my life wondering if I he really chose me - or if I just caught him.

Rynell said...

All I can say is You.Are.So.Right.

Thanks.

k8 said...

DO NOT go toe to toe with that ridiculous Why Mormon Girls blog author. The kind of childish, emotionally stunted, divisive behavior he promotes over there just *might* be a reason our dating pool is so cloudy. Please don't lower yourself and your formidable talents to his mean-spirited level.